Tropes, Misinformation, And Stereotypes: How to Identify and Avoid when writing outside your area of expertise

This was a panel at #Nerdcon 2015. Transcribed from notes in 2023.

Mary Robinette Kowal (moderator), Tea Obreht, Maggie Stiefvater, M.T. Anderson, Jeffery Cranor, Liz Hara

Jeffery Cranor earlier read the touching poem about his step brother's suicide.

You said watch me, and I did. You asked a girl to skate with you, and she did. As the DJ played you kissed her. You married the girl from the skate rink.

Skip Sunday school step dad kick leading astray. First and only time was hit for doing something cool. You said nothing, but the gun said something else.
Why the fuck would you keep a loaded gun in the house when you have three kids and an alcohol problem?

Writing Excuses podcast.

Questions first:
How do you break the stereotype of the character that's trying to break the stereotypes?

What types of stereotypes do you encounter most in your writings or in the writings of others?

When is it appropriate to use stereotypes or tropes?

What is an example of an area you didn't know that you didn't know?

How do you know when a stereotype is damaging a story?

What's a time where a white author wrote about a person of color well?

What are your thoughts when people say all stereotypes are based on truths?

When do you decide to say "screw it, It's ready"

How do you deal with confrontation re: stereotypes

Common Stereotypes

Jeffery Cranor:
If we describe white people the way we describe people of color (olive colored, chocolate) it gets silly: mashed potatoes, halibut, etc.

Liz Hara:
Girl characters don't have types, they're boring.

M.T. Anderson:
Gilligan's island theme screws over women. Genre fiction: Strong pull towards tropes, people expect certain things. A lot of fantasy novels were written for boys at a personal time in their life, which has a certain relationship with masculinity.
...
Boys with phallic things ("I ride a dragon, there's a serpent between my legs") powers that play out at a kid.
...
Even as a kid I was aware of gendered nature of the genre.
...
(female protags?)

Thea:
The notion of the rescued female is slowly being overcome. I've become more suspicious of the spunky female heroine, but only characteristic is that she's spunky.

Maggie:
OCD is portrayed bad (like Monk). When it's not named, it's good.
The only queers we get in a book is… (couldn't hear). Wow she talks fast.

Truth

Moderator: Are all stereotypes based on truth? I mean out there somewhere, there's a spunky girl (laughter). But I think we all know that not all stereotypes are based on truth, but can we agree that there are places that stereotypes are useful?

Jeff: I'm gonna say no, unless you're taking it on or subverting it. Oftentimes when a stereotype appears, it's due to laziness or obliviousness, it's not a writing tool

Someone: unless you're doing commentary, avoid

Thea:  unless you're punching it up. If you're saying look at this idiot who has this beliefs, that's a good way to start a conversation in identifyin

Maggie: stereotypes come from shallow observation, also called shitty writing. If you look at a lot of people and see patterns…. Dang she talks fast

Blind Spots

Mod: Re: lazy writing: writers have blind spots caused by consuming lots of fiction. You my think it's fresh and new, but how do you identify your blind spots?

Jeff: Read a lot, so you know if you're making a joke and punching something up, see that a lot of people do that same thing, and say that's actually hurtful, or done a lot. Listen a lot, read a lot. If a joke has been played out, find something new.

Liz?: Show your work to a lot of people to get new opinions, on page everything looks good. I'm writing a play with an Asian-American pretending to be native American, really makes people uncomfortable, but I need to find out where the lines are (he's embodying a lot of stereotypes)

Mod: Are you finding an audience in that community

Liz: I'm trying

M.T. :When you hear people saying "You can't police things", it's not about policing, looking for not messing up, it's about getting better, seeking excellence. It's not a fringe activity to make sure you're not stepping on anyone's toes, you should love to look at the world and love to say things about it.

Dominate Axes

**Mod: Useful frame I use for dealing with power differentials or stereotypes, everyone lives on a set of axes, and everyone has a point that they are dominate and one they are subordinate. If we go with gender (forgive me for saying it's binary, limitations, etc.). The female end is subordinate, on the sexuality I'm straight, that's dominant, on race I'm white, in the US I'm dominant.

The most useful thing for looking at that is realizing that people exist in multiple directions.

There are places where you can match up with those axis, but how do you step out of that?

How do you find out where the character exists on those axes when they aren't like you?**

Thea: Even if the character is a villain, start with affectionate empathy, an as you throw the stimuli of the world at them, reflect on how those stimuli rank on that spectrum of axes (which I love)

Mod: Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria (book recommendation, not a random question)

Thea: It comes from the notion that you have to abandon your own lens. Everyone assumes their lens is the default, but when you're writing outside yourself, that’s the first thing that has to go, that your lens is the only one, you have to get rid of that, especially if you're white cis, straight, etc.

Getting it wrong

Mod: There are people afraid that if we get it wrong we'll be labelled bad people, racist, sexist, etc. I read work that is written by the community I’m writing about for that community, and try to find that lens. That's how I find jargon. If anyone reads sci fi fantasy, and you drop a word like shiny, you don't have to explain that reference. How do you do that when you step outside yourself? Do you go places, hang out with people?

Maggie: Any book is a second hand source. If I write about myself, it's still a second hand account, I'm buffing off the corners, if you observe me, you won't see what I told you, the things that seem normal. You HAVE to observe things first hand, you have to ride a horse to write about horses, not just watching horses.

M.T. Anderson: Why are you writing about it if you don't know about it? Of course you have to get involved there.

Maggie: If the only reason you can give for writing something is "it's important", it's not your story to tell.

Liz: if there's only one person of color in a story, they are the ONE reference, you need more. With teenagers, everyone has their own stereotypes, especially about teenagers. Being cajoled into wanting to be weirdly horny, etc. #NotAllTeenagers, where tv shows have "boring" teenaged characters, blank that the viewer fills in

So make the character specific, with nuance, with but the sex scene as boring, etc.

We've all been a teen.

Make sure the other has agency, they aren't the other, the follower, the girl, do they have that power.
Give agency to the side characters.
Especially if they are on a subordinate axis.
How do you give them agency without derailing the main plot?

Don’t describe what a character looks like, give them something to do, the dire straits.

Jefferey Cantor: Give all characters some back story. Give insight about that character
Salvation army was uncomfortable with main character being gay? "How do you know he's gay if there's no discussion of sex?"
"What is it that defines that character, what do they want, how do they do it?"

"Leave blank the characters that aren't going to be there"

Maggie: No, give me an iceberg, I want to think that all of the characters have something going on, more than what I'm seeing. It doesn't have to be a lot, just a hint, that's how a tertiary character gets depth.

Default Assumptions

Mod to Jeff: If you don't describe background characters, they assume my character is white, male straight. Instead I start describing everyone. My main character was white British woman, and at a certain point I only pointed out when people were white, because most people there are Caribbean. Do you only describe them when they are important?

Liz: I did a puppet show with Japanese-American puppets that was about sandwiches. Someone asked why are these characters Japanese-American, as if it was an artistic choice. My answer was: "Because their parents were" When you make a choice, it becomes a choice, instead of just another random detail.

Mod: People assume that if you call something out as not white, people assume it's important.

Maggie: I never describe my characters, there are lots of defaults, they assume white straight, hot, skinny. But apparently you have to describe their waist or they assume model-esque.

⭐ Don't leave the blank slate if it isn't.

Jeff: Describing a character without describing allows some thing you can set up, Taniqua Shane is different than Jennifer Smith. I just meant not exploring the character until they had a drive. Everyone in the room should matter.

When to start

Mod: How do you know when to start writing, once you've done the research?

Thea: ==At a certain point, you have to have something concrete on the page to change, even if it's only to change. ==I start to write when I envision the scene, when to not put it down means it won't exist, even if I feel I don't have enough, but it has to become this actual thing.

Liz: If you wait until you feel you're ready (shakes head)

M.T. : On the other hand when exploring things that aren't your own, hesitance is OKAY. Once you feel you could share stories about this character that you're not going to tell, that's the sign that the character is well-developed, when you know more than you need to say. Quotes someone: Never write about a community where you don't understand the subdivisions of that community. Co Booth (maybe)

If you're thinking sci fi, you can tell if someone from outside that community is writing about them, they don't understand the debates within that community.

Mod: IS steampunk fantasy or sci fi?

Liz: You're not fluent in a language until you can tell a joke. That's probably true for a community as well.

Mod: I just start writing. It's not when I need to stop, it's when I need to go back and do more research.

Maggie: I don't start a character until I know the place where it's planted. Geography.

Mod: A lot of people will say this person is American or European. But the south is different from Hawaii. In the south you don't put someone is a position where they have to say no is rude. So you state a problem, and they volunteer. You only request if it's urgent.

In Hawaii, you start with the request, and explain the details later

Someone else: That's WRONG.

The point is, knowing where you are in a region, education level, etc.

Jeff: That's the kind of richness I'm talking about. It's not about corn dogs, it's about that difference

(argument about corn dog and corn breads)

Mod: a lot of people have blind spots about their own cultures. If I complained about a box, I never understood why my husband wouldn't get it.

"My mom would say there's a bag of apples on the couther in the kitchen and I'd say okay I'll have a pie ready for dinner and my husband would say "Wasn't she just offering an apple?" (see also Ask Culture vs Guess Culture)

Maggie: blah blah humanity.

MT: Read your writing to others. Not just have them read it. Because as you're about to read it, you'll start to feel fear and loathing about particular parts of the writing, and you'll suddenly scratch out lines and paragraphs and pages, as you'll see your words through their eyes.

Mod: I read all my things out loud, preferably to an audience. [you find bad things]

Thea: step away from it for a good while, also. You and the work become one, and you know what the next line IS without that moderator lens and you coast through the mistakes. So take a break and give some distance in time.

Think of John: I didn't know that because he never described you that way. Note: this is my own reference to John Dies at the End, meeting Amy(?) who was missing a hand

Maggie: Talking so fast. Something about your editor saying that you describe cars a lot.

MT: You shouldn't have to describe some things, something about elvish being okay but Spanish is political.

Maggie: One of my books is really accessible, it brings people in without specificity, there's balance. You have to be specific, okay I didn't catch this because she talks fast

Failure

Mod: How do you deal with someone calling you on a failure: I had a character who I referred to as a half breed half native American half Irish, and he was crazy and I thought I was playing against stereotypes about iriqoui blood, but I was actually playing into stereotypes about…something. I was able to do more work and republish it. Most of the time I don't have the opportunity to do that. What do you do? (you can read both versions and the dialogue around it if you're interested)

Maggie: Readers asked me why my books are white washed. My books are. I noticed that and decided to change that. So My current works are getting better. I hope that people see that I'm making steps forward.

"not allowed to say ladies and gentlemen because it's not inclusive enough"

Maggie: You wont just get good feedback, you'll also get really bad feedback, and if you KNOW then you have to stick to your bones. I only got about a third of what she said.

Jeff: You can't be upset that someone is upset with you, you have to try to find the reason they are upset.

Mod: People have a right to anger, especially if you screwed up.